Is a convert considered just as Jewish as a person who was born Jewish?
Hello-
I was raised as a Muslim, a traditional Muslim, but I never felt that way, so when I was about 15 years old, I called myself a non-believer. As a part of Muslim belief we were taught about the biblical stories about Moses and Christianity as well, and I was fascinated by the Jewish religion (sorry about my English, I am not very good at it). I studied Economics at college and I was always into social studies and personally read a lot about history. I am now 23 years old and I believe that there must be an order in the world and I feel Judaism very close to my heart. The question is that it’s a very common belief around here is that ‘you cannot become Jewish but could only born as one’. I wonder if I could be assumed as a real Jew if I converted, or if it would never be like being born and raised as a Jew? I would be very glad if you could answer this for me.
Sincerely yours,
Galia
Dear Galia,
Thanks for your question. You can 100% convert and if you do it in accordance with Jewish law, you will be considered Jewish by everyone. The Torah itself speaks about conversion. Moses’s wife, Tzipora was a convert, and the most famous conversion story in Judaism is written about Ruth in the book of Ruth.
You must keep something in mind though: not only do we not proselytize within Judaism, we don’t take converts unless they are truly sincere. While a Jewish life is a rewarding one, there are also many responsibilities that it entails. I personally feel that it’s well worth it, but when a person attempts to convert, a rabbi will try rather hard to dissuade him from doing so. This is not because we don’t allow conversion or consider converts to be real Jews, but rather because we don’t want someone taking on the obligations of being Jewish if they’re not serious about follow through with them.
Once a person converts (according to Jewish law), not only is he considered 100% Jewish, you’ll be glad to know, the Torah instructs Jews to treat the convert especially nice because it reminds us that we were once “strangers in a strange land.” Meaning we should be extra sensitive to those coming from a different place as well.
Good luck with your journey, whatever you decide.
Allison
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Allison gave a great response.
May I also add that when you convert please look deeply into the movement that you are converting in. I wish that all converts were required to go through an Orthodox conversion. That way you get the most thorough of Jewish Conversion experiences. There are many converts like me out there. We started in Reform, then to Conservative, and then to Orthodox. An Orthodox conversion is accepted in all mainstream movements in Judaism.
Also, prepare yourself for the way you will be treated by people in your life. Before I was Jewish I did not have Anti-Semites in my circle of friends; however, I clearly work with some. Last year it came to a boil during Hanukah. I put up my hanukiah with candles in my office. My office had decorated Christmas trees everywhere. I did ask that one not be put in my office, but the Christians I work with did not respect my request. I intended to keep the hanukiah (sans candles) up until New Years. What happened next floored me. I was told to take my hanukiah down. I firmly said to my Director, “The menorah comes down when the tree comes down.” That was not the first battle I had in office for my Jewish identity nor will I believe that it will be my last.
Like you, I have Muslim people in my family. I am lucky. The love that we have for each other as family members is higher than the dislike that our two religions have for each other. This year my family had a Vegetarian Eid-Shabbat Dinner. I am confident that we are the only family on the planet that did that. Hopefully, the love that your family has for you will eclipse the historical and current clashes between the religions.
Good Luck!
Shelly
Great response on how Jewish and Muslim family members coexist, I’m so happy to hear that. If our Prophets Mohamed PBUH and Moses PBUH had witnessed this how happy they would’ve been. May god guide us all to live in the same harmony regardless of our faiths. As all faiths only promote peace if you study them and follow them correctly.
Allison,
If you are talking about Caucasian Jews, I agree with you 100% but, if you are talking about non-white Jews (black or African American Jews, specifically), I disagree wholeheartedly. A non-white halachically Jewish convert or FFB is not seen as 100% Jewish. It is a real issue in the community; therefore, a non-white individual who is thinking of converting should ask themselves if it’s worth the headache. Non-white Jews have been wished good morning after saying good Shabbos to someone even when the person is wearing a Kippa and tzitzit. They also experience “daily” strangers questioning their Jewishness. They either get individuals asking them so when did you convert even though they were born Jewish or people wanting to know the most intimate details of their conversion if they had one. I don’t know what is worse constantly assuming people who are Jewish aren’t or asking the non-white Jew questions about their conversion like the stranger has a right to know. So, yes we are told to love the convert and to never remind them that they were converts; however, that is not the reality. There is nothing anyone can say to justify this kind of treatment of people just because they don’t look Jewish. Perhaps, Allison, you should write an article about that!
Thanks for your comment, Informed Jew. I was answering the question of “are you actually Jewish, when you convert?” Since Galia was saying that in her Muslim circles, they incorrectly believe that “you cannot become Jewish but could only born as one.”
What you speak to, as you mentioned, is not really an issue of conversion – it’s an issue of a person looking “atypically Jewish.” As you noted, people who are born Jewish (even religious) who look “atypically Jewish” are faced with questions and don’t get the same treatment as people who look “typically Jewish.”
It should be mentioned, that this is not just a problem in the Orthodox circles, but in all Jewish circles.
It’s very unfortunate that people behave this way and we Jews who look typically Jewish have to do a better job of making our Jewish brothers and sisters feel more welcome and comfortable. There’s no exuse for this behavior. I just hope that as the world get more open-minded about things in general (and I believe that that is the trend) that the open-mindedness makes its way into the Jewish circles.
It is like a european converting to budhism, he would never look like a real asian budhist..
Amen, nicely said.
Allison,
I’d like to point out that Informed Jew also is talking about nonwhite converts as well.
I am African American and I never will forget meeting a woman, Jewish, who discussed the issue of conversion with me and another woman, who was white.
As the two of us shared with this woman our experiences in having an interest in Judaism and the decision to undergo conversion, this woman quipped that I would have to travel to another country to snag a husband. Of course, this was not the case for the white woman who was part of this discussion.
There are other stories that are too numerous to mention here, but it is an issue that many Jews of Color–those who are born Jewish or Jews by Choice–have to face on an ongoing basis.
And as Informed Jew noted, it would indeed be interesting if you were to write an article about this issue.
I am an orthodox convert and while I’m respected in my community as a Jew, and I have been given great honors in various chassidim circles, I can tell you that you are never viewed like one of them, especially when it comes to finding a spouse or marrying off your children, even if you are white among ashkenazim or dark among sephardim. But this is just part of human flaws, a test that is viewed with great love by Hashem. After all, that’s what counts.
Thanks for your comment, Joshua. I’m sorry that you haven’t been treated like the Torah tells you we’re supposed to treat a convert, in your circles. I think, unfortunately, the same thing happens to ba’alei teshuva (returnees to faith) in more right wing circles. Every community has its pros and cons, but I did want to point out that in the Modern and Centrist Orthodox circles, I think most ba’alei teshuva and converts are more readily accepted in every way.
Ouch.
Allison, while I respect your opinion a lot and enjoy reading what you have to say, I do not believe your comment about greater acceptance for BT’s and converts in Modern and Centrist Orthodox circles is fair. There are wonderful, welcoming, non-judgmental people in every Torah community, including the “really frum” ones. It’s all a matter of middos, in my opinion. Some people have good middos, some people have bad middos – it really doesn’t matter what type of headwear you have on… People are not more intolerant because they are more machmir, wear more black, etc.
Maybe I feel this way because I’m an “out-of-towner,” but although my husband and I are considered pretty ultra-Orthodox, we really like, accept, and respect our neighbors, friends, shul members, extended family/mechutanim who are converts. Even the ones whose skin is black!
Thanks for your comment, Tova. Of COURSE there are open-minded, accepting “ultra-Orthodox” Jews out there. But I think if you look at percentages of the communities you’ll find that in the more Haredi circles, there’s more an focus on yichus in shidduchim and less of an openness with bt’s and gerim than in the more modern circles. That is not to say the more modern circles are perfect by any stretch of the imagination! Every group has its strengths and it’s flaws. The reason I mentioned it was because I’m trying to give realistic information to the questioner. There WILL be people who will be less open to meeting a convert and in my experience I’ve seen more of that in the more RW circles.
Allison, I appreciate your insistence of what Torah says, but am confounded by the apparent refusal to hear multiple cries of the reality of how converts are treated, Jews of Color in particular. For me, the biggest ouch goes beyond your suggestion that certain communities are more open by definition, to what feels like blaming the convert, going as far as suggesting living a Noahide life in lieu of the Jewish life one may be drawn to. You have clearly opened an important topic that has solicited replies spanning from your April 2009 article through August 2017, and now my April 2018 comment. While you mention an upcoming article relating to RSM’s thoughts about exiting Judaism, I do not see links to this ongoing topic of remembering our own enslavement and being treated as a stranger in Egypt (or Africa), especially near the annual re-telling of the Pesach story of Exodus. Ranit’s comment of the myth of “looking” Jewish is particularly interesting. If there is to be a poster child, geography and the reality of ancient travel make Mizrahi Jews the likeliest of what a Jew looks like over Ashkenazim. The reality is, Jews are of the diaspora and are everywhere. Who we look like reflects that… even white.
Allison, I’m don’t agree with you that “in more right wing circles BTs aren’t as accepted”. I am part of a very right wing community and we embrace Baalei Teshuva and hold them in the highest esteem. It is true that some of us would hesitate before dating a BT; that is because we really try to date someone with as similar background as possible (more common ground, easier time adjusting to marriage, etc.)
Not getting access to the same shidduch options is exactly what I was referring to. I have heard bt’s in these circles comment on how difficult this is.
I am an Iranian woman who converted through the Reform movement and am constantly interrogated about my Jewishness. I used to answer truthfully until one day I just snapped and told the Ashkenazi cow that SHE didn’t look Jewish AT ALL because people in Israel look more like ME than her. That was the day I found the chutzpah to tell anyone who questions my Jewishness to take a hike. Jews of colour (whether born Jewish or Jewish through conversion) face unique struggles in the Jewish world. It had gotten so bad in my city that I refuse to attend kenissa, even for the High Holy Days. I celebrate my Judaism privately now.
Hi Ranit,
I am also an Iranian who is considering conversion to Judaism… there are a few obstacles I am facing and was wondering if you would be willing to chat as I have a few questions and have yet to meet someone in this situation. Thanks,
M
I’m sorry you had to deal with that negativity. Do you think it’s possible that people have just become very paranoid, overprotective & scared because Jews are always so harassed and targeted unfairly for violence?
Maybe they don’t mean anything personal. It’s true what you say, in Israel and through the mid east Jews and everyone else frankly all look similar in coloring.
Sis I freaking love you! There is a cerntain point where you just can’t, shouldn’t and won’t take the abuse anymore! Good for you! I needed to hear this story. Believe it or not even though I am a Russian Jewish woman and I have gotten the “You don’t look Jewish” statements all the time and it has become heart shattering. I remember a lady in my Shul (Orthodox) on SHABBAT, in front of people tell me tell me that Jews don’t have blue eyes that they are not really JewsI Plot twist…. She had blue eyes! I remember tears filling my eyes right then and there. Then she had the audacity to say “You look like you’re about to cry!” That was one of the worst incidents. I never feel Jewish enough. When will we stop hurting our own. What happened to K’lal Yisrael! I feel your pain sis!
I was raised a catholic Christian but stopped to be one for 2 years now. I just realized that many religious and theological elements in catholic religion are actually pagan Roman practices. And I stopped attending these religious activities because I feel repulsed and they feel abhorrent to me. I studied theology to further my knowledge about religion but the more I gain religious and theological knowledge on Roman catholic religion the more I am enlightened about these pagan-based catholic practices. And I always questioned why, if Jesus was a Jew, did the Roman catholic church change the practices of Jesus. And why not remain the same as what Jesus did perform. Thoughts like that always occur in my mind. And I have been thinking of converting to the first religion of Jesus…..Judaism.
But I am not white. I am Asian. Can a Filipino become a Jew? Although 95% of Filipino men are circumcised after birth or during childhood, I have reservation about converting to the original religion for the reason that most of the Jews I have seen in Toronto area are white.I just keep in my heart my fervent desire to go back to the religion of Jesus because of the repercussion that I surely face from my community and the community of the white Jews.
What I do is study personally about Judaism in the internet. And because I love things Jewish, I even memorize by heart the Israeli national anthem because I love it so much. It is close to my heart. Listening to it played on Youtube always brings me to tears. It is a song of longing for God, for God’s place. I even wanted, a certain point in my life, to study Hebrew in order to read the Bible in Hebrew language.
Can a Filipino guy become a Jew?
Thanks for your comment, Deo. ANYONE can convert to Judaism as long as he or she is sincere and has a conversion according to Jewish law. However, the Jewish people are not a perfect people, and you will likely be noticed for looking “atypical.” That’s not to say it’s not worth converting, but it might be helpful to speak to other converts who are Asian or African American and find out what their experience has been. Acccording to Jewish law, we Jews are not supposed to remind a convert of his past and we’re required to love him more than any other Jew, but unfortunately, Jews don’t always live up to Judaism.
Another thing you could consider is becoming a Noahide – a righteous gentile. It means you remain a non-Jew, but live according to the basic principles the Torah gave for non-Jews. You can learn more here: noahide.org.
Good Luck!
I’m just hoping for a miracle that Deo would read this reply since this is an old thread already. But just in case, Deo, I want you to know that our situations are exactly the same. I’m a Filipino-Canadian living in Toronto and desiring to convert.
I’ve been having a deep urge to be apart of Jewish community for a long while, 25 yrs.,since I read Abba Eban’s autobiography & a few books relating to Israel’ history.I was born & brought up in India and in Sikh faith. ’55 years of age and I live in Sydney, Australia.Personally & for the most part of my life I’ve been an agnostic.I drive buses to make a living here & every time there is a Jewish person on my bus I feel like giving a big hug, I don’t know why but they seem to be my own (more than Indians or Sikhs.) Can I become a Jew ?
Of course you can. Any sincere prospective convert is allowed to convert. I recommend reaching out to rabbis.org/conversion.cfm to find a rabbi in your area.
Here’s a question that no one seems to be willing to answer … how can one EXIT the Jewish community and why doesn’t the religion allow for it?! I was born to a reformed family who couldn’t tell you anything about “what it means to be….” I have never felt a connection to it (and yes, I’ve tried) and any association with it has always made me feel more an outcast in society. What bothers me the most is that the religious dogma associated with it polutes society with the notion that you are “born” into it. Nothing could be less true, in my opinion, or more offensive. It’s a religion … not a race! And it is only the religious aspect of it that proclaims it’s a race. Forcing someone that the religion believes was born into become a Jew is tantamount to forcing the title on them … and no better than the proselytizing that other religions do! Unless the religion wants to deteriorate from the inside-out, it needs to formulate an exit clause. I find myself having to force separation from the stigma by saying some not-so-pleasant things about the religion. I cannot respect it or it’s people until it respects me and my position. I AM NOT A JEW!
Thanks for your comment, RSM. I think I’d like to answer this as an upcoming Q&A. It’s a fascinating issue you raise. Stay tuned!
Rsm, I hate to here the words you are saying, I can feel that you have been hurt, and I feel and understand where you are at…I dont know if I can blame it on reform or not, but it really sounds like you have not been taught everthing to it fullness and have a deep desire to fit into the wider world, and feel it actually has something of value, something new, or something exciting to offer, and it if you believe it does mabye you should experience it…. I usually reccommend revelation over experimentation (Hasatan loves the later) but sometimes it’s really necessary….
Heres the thing you can say all you want about the ‘religion’, you can denounce being a ‘Jew’, your heritage, your ancestors, their blood and everything else, you have every right in Torah its called freedom of choice or Free will…Hashem Loves you regardless, but you loving Him must be a choice or its not real!
Also there is a exit clause…… you just exit……and accept all that it ensues, it dosnt go both ways….
you just choose to exit and dont look back, you leave your family, community, lifestyle,and many other aspects of your reality, its what exit means and no one will prevent you from doing it……..
But dont expect to live both inside and outside at the same time….there cannot be leaven in the dough, you cannot worship Hashem and a Baal…all you have t do is make a descision for yourself or your people and follo0w the path set before you….
Dear i would like to inform you about my problem i was born in islam but i not like islam after i became christian i studied bible very deeply when i studied bible full .I can understand judaisam is real religion christian and islam are fake religion i hate islam and christian only one real and genuine religion is judaisam i want became a judaisam iam a indian muslim how to come to israel i want became jewish please help me i hate islam i want come israel
Manseer: “In the direction a person wishes to go, he is led.” Good luck on your spiritual journey!
You’ll be considered to be 100% Jewish but not in the eyes of born-in Hebrews of Israel, especially if they’re orthodox. In that case you’d likely be a second-class Jew rather than an equal to them.
I’m not going to say that * nobody * feels that way, but it’s hardly a universal constant, and anyone who does feel that way is simply wrong. I refer you to this article: http://www.ou.org/life/inspiration/our-abandoned-converts-jack-abramowitz/
I converted Reform 11 years ago. The one minor detail that rendered my conversion “invalid” according to some is that the court contained one female Rabbi. A minor detail that matters to many, many people and sects within Judaism. Despite this, I live a fully observant Jewish life and consider myself Jewish as do other (some who are Orthodox) Jews and non-Jews whose opinions I value. But this is my perspective, if this person or that person says I’m not Jewish, I simply do not care. And really, each potential convert must decide for themselves. How much does it matter to you if other Jews and/or non-Jews accept you as Jewish? Does being accepted as Jew in Israel matter to you? With that being said, someone, somewhere is going to question your intent, the validity of the process, whether you are a “real” Jew, etc. Even some Haredi in Israel have “voided” some Orthodox conversions and rendered them as invalid. The best advice I can offer a potential convert is this: Keep moving forward…live a Jewish life, do Jewish things because it is through action and keeping mitzvot that we bind ourselves to HaShem, otherwise we are living no different than we were before our conversion. Bonding with Him is key because you will find that He will be your only source of strength when you feel like the rest of the world, both Jews and non-Jews, have failed your expectations.
Other comments that have been mentioned above which I wish to add to here because of the amount of time that has lapsed between their post and this one: (although other may have also commented on them at the time)
As for “non-white” Jewish converts, I have not had any experience with this, but I did take the time to read two articles on Aish.com. One was an African-American minister prior to her conversion and the other was Japanese.
http://www.aish.com/ci/a/48943156.html
http://www.aish.com/ho/p/48943041.html
Also someone (RSM, I think) said that something about Judaism being a religion, not a race and was asking why can one convert but not “leave” the “religion”. This is my very limited viewpoint on the matter: It is neither a religion nor a race. I say this because, there are atheist Jews, secular Jews, Arab Jews, European Jews, African Jews, etc…the list is never ending. But there is something that must tie all Jews together somehow. If it’s not G-d (religion) or a race, then what? In it’s most basic form it is simply belonging to a people…a tribe of people, a group of people. For example, even though RSM stated so clearly “I AM NOT JEW!” RSM came to a Jewish site. Why? Why go to a Jewish site if you have “denounced” your heritage? RSM will always have that connection in one way or another, like it or not. That is why one cannot leave. Everyone on the face of this earth has a longing to belong to a group of people. For those who born Jew, they automatically belong to a group. For the convert, they are adopted.
excellent insight, especially in regard to the rsm situation, beautifully well said and true! may I just say that in regard to the validity of you conversion it isnt about what people think, there are soul, physical and legal aspects….your concern should be with doing ‘jewishness’ it should be with TorahFullness, as you are led and grow in your study and obedience to Torah you will find your soul, and body will grow through a process that will prepare you to become fully legally valid by those with the authority to validate…..
Shalom
Jews who want their children to marry Jewish are racists period. I went to yeshiva for two years after high school and then attended four years of university, the later having a much more profound effect on me as a person. I met the girl of my dreams but she isn’t jewish…. Speaking to my parents indirectly about the issue sparked a huge fight and explained to me the level of intolerance and racism parents “who want their children to marry jewish” hold with them. Even for her to convert would be too much for them!
You had a big fight with your parents so therefore “Jews who want their children to marry Jewish are racist period?” I’m sorry for your negative experience but that is the very definition of anecdotal evidence. You should never use anecdotal evidence – I know a guy who used anecdotal evidence once and he died the next day! (See what I did there?)
All parents want certain things for their kids and I assume you will, too. Let’s assume you’re pretty liberal. Would you be okay if your daughter brought home a Tea Party member? If you’re a member of PETA, would you be okay with a son-in-law who works in a slaughterhouse? Ultimately, parents can’t control their children’s choices but you can’t fault them for trying to instill the values that are important to them. This is normal and racism doesn’t enter into it.
Ameyn
I am a Noahide and I am proud to say that I cant wait until HaShem guides me to conversion. However, the Talmud says that you should love a convert more than yourself because their soul has been rencarnated and found its way again. Being a convert is a grea honor and if you feel that connection, always look within yourself.
I just want to chime in and shake the tree a bit…and see what falls out…ha
First I am originally from east africa and in my country the vaste majority of ‘Jews’ are ‘Black’ people, while many have moved to Eretz Yisrael (with great resistance from secular Israeli’s) after Mengistu…I dont want to get into reform vs conservative vs orthodox blah blah blah, we are all one people…so without taking one side you can call me unleavened, hows that? 🙂 and the problem of racism that rose its ugly head here is universal…
Many of my people converted to another religion after the genocide(unfortunetly, but the irony is that over 60% of the countries people are bloodline Y’hudim, mostly descended from tribes of Y’hudah and Benyamin…The racism we experience in the west and often in Eretz Yisael is unforntunate, and I dont have time to discuss all the reasons behind this racism especially from those Ashkenazim and basically all ‘Jews’ of European origin…..
While still being religiously ‘Jewish’ many of these have very little ‘Jewish’ blood, after being diluted up in Europe for so long…lol….and honestly in reality they are actually a ‘Jewish’ minority, despite their apparent feeling of superior authority over Hashems Torah! I am deeply ashamed of todays ‘Jewish’ Racism……
There is a historical fact that most of my close friends (mostly Rabbis) in Eretz Yisrael and a few in the U.S. secretly agree but rarely talk about openly…that is the fact that originally ALL Y’hudim were black people! and I do mean all, the first that were’nt were proselytes….there is just such overwhelming evidence of this, both secular and even in the Torah itself. It actually so obvious it should be common sense.
I’ll spare all the details for now but will be happy to answer questions and send you to resources, so you can learn for your self…but if any of you have been to a museum of tolerance you would know by the cocentration camp pictures that so many of us, even after hundreds of years in Europe still showed such stricking remnants of african traits, and it should be known there is an assimilation strategy in play at the present time…
All of these points require alot more detailed explaination, I just wanted to get some wheels turning…
The questions we need to ask really arent if this is true, The question is why is it like this? Why this concealment? Why this apparent Racism towards people who resemble our ancestors? Why this rejection of people whom in many cases have more ‘Jewish’ blood then these self righteous of us? Why are we (dark skinned ‘Jews’) excluded from our communities and in some cases Eretz Yisrael (without years of proving and fighting).? Why dont these western ‘Jews’ reach out to their brothers and siters whom are suffering in the Goyim environment when the have been in the same position not to long ago? why are these western ‘Jews’ adopting ‘white supremist” perspectives and ideologies?
Hashem and His Torah are Truth, Great and Perfect, the worlds ONLY true ‘religion’, the only way that was not created by men but by Hashem Himself….He set us apart, He gave us His Mitzvot for a special purpose as a light to the nations, so that those righteous may enjoy the promised world to come…But men have allowed Hasatan to sneak in and divide our community, pervert our purpose! The result is weaking us and preventing valuable voices from being heard, voices that may hold the Key to our Promise being fulfilled……
I hope Ive got you thinking,
Shalom Aleichem
How am I not sincere about my conversion?
Is it not enough believing only in G-d?