I Want To Stop Being Jewish – Why Is There No Exit Strategy?

Awesome reply! So well stated!

A brilliant answer to a hard question.

Allison,Great response as usual. Seems like you put alot of effort into this post and it’s sad that you received this question in the first place. I hope RSM finds her way back into Judaism. Judaism is a beautiful religion. Some people need direction.Good Luck RSM

Reading this makes me so sad. my parents became frum when I was young, and just recently one of my siblings has announced that they no longer want to be Jewish, they never connected, they are repulsed by Judaism. This is from someone who has been exposed to orthodox life and still has rejected it. I have no idea what to say or do. They see how happy my family is being frum, surrounded by close family and an amazing community but they still want out. I can’t figure it out 🙁

I would argue that being Jewish is a race and not just a religion. For instance, there are certain diseases only affecting to Ashkenezi Jews, while that’s sad, it does prove that there is a DNA linkage amongst Jewish people from different regions. The same disease does not affect the gentiles from that region, thus proving the point that Jews are a family, and not just a belief system.

Reading this post makes me really sad. Specially when I feel more and more connected to my Judaism. My father passed away 5 months ago and, the only responses to the void and the sadness his absence mean to me are in Judaism. No matter how much therapy I go to, how much I talk to my friends, practice yoga or hug the rest of my family, nothing calms me more than the loving practice of Judaism.

I come from a conservative Jewish family, I went to Jewish schools and learned hebrew. Judaism has been with me all my life in different forms. Sometime closer and sometimes in more distant ways.

From my experience the need for a more meaningful and profound life eventually arrives. That is when you start looking in Buddhism or The Art of Living or whatever gets to you. But fortunately, all that wisdom has existed, for thousands of years, in the religion you were born in. And that connection is much closer than you expected.

I am a Jew in the City reader who is a conservative presbyterian.
I just wanted to add – other religions also continue to claim their children even when the children don’t claim them. Roman Catholics count all baptized Catholics as Catholic, whether they practice or not. At my church all the children of members are considered covenant children all their lives, whether they practice or not, and if they don’t, we pray for them to return to the faith. As far as Jews, G-d made his promises to Abraham and his seed, not just the seed who claim G-d, so I do understand the idea that to be a Jew is a matter of race as well as religion.

Wow

This is my first time reading your work
I am impressed and personally uplifted by your writing
Keep up the good work !!

Amazing response. I never would have thought of the analogy you presented, but it works perfectly.

A rabbi, friend, and co-worker saw this post differently. He believes, and I happen to agree, the person asking the question is answering the question themselves.

The fact that he/she even cares what anybody thinks or what Jews believe is the proof that he/she is connected eternally. We’re free to go off and do what we wish, G-d has given us free-will. But our connection to Judaism isn’t automatically severed by our behavior. It runs deeper than that. His example below:

(If I left a country club and they told me I am a lifetime member even though I stopped paying membership and they would never bother me…would I care?)

I am German and have Jewish ancestors. The matriline is broken, so I would have to convert, what is not possible right now, because I am married to somebody who is not willing to convert. It hurts and saddens me to see that there are people who are Jewish and just don’t see and feel the beauty!

Wonderful response

Very good on you for being there, and taking the time to answering questions like this one.

Alison, as usual your reply was spot on. I would like to offer a possible other clue to the question writer’s mindset based on what an acquaintance of mine is going through. She was born into a reform Jewish family, became observant in her native country and came to the US to live n a more Jewish Community. She married a chassidic man, has 6 young children now, and has become deeply troubled by what she sees as hypocracy in the frum world. She says she has been abused by her husband and that the rabbis in her community consistently take her husband’s side because he is a man and she merely a woman. Ive tried to tell her not to “throw out the baby with the bath water” but she is too hurt and angry to hear. So now she is acting out by breaking Shabbos and refusing to cover her hair, etc. I am concerned about the effect this has on her children and that her anger will continue to blind her. Your writer may also be reacting to a similsr dissapoindissapoinment

Wow! Wat an answer! Wen I saw the title I was like OMG how do u answer that? I might be frum but bais yaakov doesn’t exactly tell u things like this. Just becuz I’m frum doesn’t mean I don’t need to hear these things too and understand why I’m proud to be a Jew and not just say it

Please check your sources; the Tanna’s name was Elisha ben Avuya, not Elisha ben Nevuya.

I appreciate the question and the response, especially as a “Jew” who was raised reformed but was not fortunate enough to have a Jewish mother. I am now going through an Orthodox conversion process and have to say that I also feel that Judaism is “unfair,” but from the exact opposite point of view. I have considered myself a Jew my whole life, loved everything about being Jewish, would have been killed in the Holocaust even though I am not halachically Jewish, but I still must “convert.” Our religion is beautiful but it is also unfortunate that it ostracizes both those who want “in” and those who want “out.”

Your answer was generally very good, but you did dodge a major question — namely that of matrilinear descent.

My childen are “half Jewish” but through the father’s line. Under the Nuremburg Laws, they would be treated as Jews. Yet the Jewish religion says they do not have “Jewish souls.”

That in itself doesn’t bother me in the slightest — after all, I’m not terribly concerned with what Orthodox Judaism has to say about their souls (they are baptized Catholics) nor do I feel that the Nazis should be considered the definitive source for determining who is a Jew. But the fact is, they meet all your requirements for why someone should *feel* Jewish — they are related significantly by blood to the Jewish community (indeed, since my husband is Israeli, they visit Israel twice a year), they have connections to the Jewish community, they have a Jewish last name, and they would (potentially) be persecuted by anti-semites.

Yet I also know someone is who 1/8 Jewish (great-greandmother). They have an Irish name and they would never be persecuted by anti-semites (unless said anti-semites were into geneological research). Furthermore, they relate as Irish (do Irish dancing, etc.) and are baptized Catholics. Yet, Orthodox Jews would tell them that they have a “Jewish soul” and cannot truly be fulfilled until they return to their “own” religion.

The fact is that the Orthodox Jewish definition of a Jew is NOT “who has a great deal of DNA in common with the majority of the Jewish community” OR “who is treated as a Jew by the gentile world” OR “who is raised with Jewish traditions” OR “who feels a connection to Jews or Judaism.” Instead, it is a completely “religious” definition (hence, not based on reasons that can be argued rationally).

If Judaism used a patrilinear definition (as it once did) and my children were told for the rest of their lives “you are really Jews and should practice Judaism or you will never be truly happy” I can see how it might a source of irritation.

While beautifully written, I respectfully say that you are missing the point.
1: “the non-Jews STILL considered them Jews” So what? stupidity and evilness of others does not make it a fact

2: “Let’s say that you and I were brother and sister, but you wanted out of our family” Another cute yet meaningless analogy. Furthermore, a Christian who coverts to Judaism, is he still a Christian? Jews would say no; he has seen the “light” and now is one of us. Yet the Church could use the “Let’s say that you and I were brother and sister, but you wanted out of our family” argument. But you would say that analogy is nonsense, right? Yet when a Jew converts to Christianity, the Church sings the song of “he’s seen the light” and the Jews use the “brother/sister” analysis. How convenient of every religion to speak out of both sides of their mounts (or as Jews would say “dance at 2 weddings”)
3: “But I wonder if you ever explored Orthodox Judaism. Have you ever spent a Shabbos with people who truly embody the essence of Shabbos and hachnasis orchim (hospitality)?” Isn’t that condescending? Have YOU ever spent a month at the Vatican or a year in Tibet or a year in Mecca? Have you read the likes of Spinoza? Do you allow you children, teenagers, young adults to be exposed to other ideas? Of course not. They might like it and believe that there is no higher power or at the very least that individual religion and one’s superiority over the other is man-made. But the Yeshiva won’t let them go there as youngsters because they are too vulnerable, as teenagers too impressionable as young adults, why question. Sounds like brainwash to me. Yes it can be a beautiful life but that doesn’t make it right. Islam in its peaceful form is also a beautiful religion. Send some of our kids to a Midrasa? I don’t think so.

hi, I’m a conservative Muslim and find these articles very interesting! thank you.

RSM,
You claim your not Jewish and never felt any connection to Judaism. So why do you care whether Judaism considers you a Jew or not? Only someone who on some level feels even a remote. connection to Judaism would care. For years the Mormons would “convert” deceased non-Mormons even though the person in life never expressed ANY desire or interest in Mormonism. If one of those people had been my father, I would find the practice repugnant but ultimately I wouldn’t give a #*&@. Why? Because what the Mormons consider my father is irrelavent to me. My father was Jewish in life, considered himself Jewish, and will remain Jewish forever in the eyes of my family and the Jewish people. Ultimately that’s all that matters.

Very interesting question and response. I also enjoyed the commentaries. From all the commentaries, I think what RSM needs is not an exit from Judaism, but an exit from his resentment about it. This, I believe, should come in time, and in getting to know the “good side” (whatever that is to him)of the religion he was born in, which in turn will allow him to making peace with it, regardless of whether he chooses to practise or not.
I found Leah’s Rabbi’s analogy of the country club spot on.

I think should be allowed to chose whichever culture they love and be able to affiliate and build their identity likewise and others should respect it. Jewish culture or Lithuanian or Vietnamese it doesn’t matter which, one is not born one or the other one becomes one or the other through self knowledge, self realisation and one has this or that background but feels indifferent to it or does not relate it then be it, they have a right to. Telling someone that they are Jewish just because their mother is Jewish does not make one Jewish, especially if that someone is of different opinion and their feelings are different.

I also think, going by my examples from above statements, that a person born in Norway who learns to love Norwegian culture more than any other attains Norwegian soul. We can argue that way just like Jews argue for the Jewish soul attainment – both are social constructs.

Who is then to say that the Norwegian born to Jewish mother does not have a Norwegian soul instead of a Jewish soul? Who is to say how a soul is really created? Are Jews the only ones who possess the monopoly on knowledge of soul creation? Who is to say that the Norwegian soul does not take over all other souls? We can go on and on but if one feels Norwegian then no matter who their parent is, their soul or identity is Norwegian first and foremost, anything else comes second.

To Alison:

What if your children reject torah despite its “strength”? What then? Are you going to force them to become Jewish or feel Jewish even if they will not feel like it? I think you will try to make them Jewish once you notice that they are going in a different direction.

Also, just because non-Jews or anti-Jewish folk see people of Jewish descent always as Jews is not valid to say that one has to feel Jewish. Firstly, it is not the case, not every non-Jew thinks alike and many believe a person of Jewish background is not Jewish if they do not feel Jewish, you are grossly generalising (you have to get to know some more non-Jews because you think you know everything about non-Jews). Secondly, even if it was a case (but it’s not) then it still not a valid point to assume one is Jewish, just because someone calls you stupid doesn’t mean you are, just because someone says you love that person or the other doesn’t mean that you do and so on, you feel this way and that’s it.

To Dave who posted on 22nd February:

You got it absolutely right, spot on! Religious leaders of many religions (e.g.: Catholicism and Judaism) tend to justify some of their arguments with a total lack of logic and you illustrated it well.

What also puzzles me is how can one be told they are Jewish or Jewish born even if they don’t practice Judaism? Was Abraham Jewish born? No, he became Jewish, he was the first Jew, before that he was a pagan. He became Jewish only through his Jewish practices: circumcision and following Jewish values which he himself defined and which in the end defined him as a Jew. Without those Jewish practices there would not be Judaism and so there would not be Jews. So my question is what defines a person as a Jew who does not want to be Jewish or doesn’t practice Jewish religion -for whatever reason – or who is unaware of being born to Jewish mum and never identifies as a Jew? It seems like Abraham, 4000 year ago, decided for millions of people who they will be today and in the future, it seems he decided how they will feel about their identity. Why should Abraham decide what nationality a child in year 2013 will be? In my opinion it was his decision to become a Jew not those born to his tribe.

One should be able to decide for oneself who they want to be, no one asked me if I want to be baptised and regarded as Catholic. I consider it wrong. likewise, telling a person they are Jewish because their mum is Jewish is wrong because Abraham did not ask that person if they want to have Jewish values instilled in them or not. Royals in medieval Europe were privileged just because they were born to a royal, many wanted to break away, yet they were told they can not because they have an inborn royal duty to fulfil and people to rule because in their veins flows a “royal blood”. It is like saying that one is a born car mechanic or a surgeon and has to do likewise not because they have mechanical or medical skills and knowledge but just because their parents were surgeons and/or car mechanics.

Why do I have to wait days before my comments are posted? Is this the pattern on Jewish forums to screen one’s comment by 10 investigators? You already ignored one of my comments which was quite valid – obviously no to you – how about letting readers decide? I posted two more comments few days ago and I yet to see these here.

To RSM:

It is not Abraham’s decision, it is an individual choice. Those who want out and do not regard themselves Jewish even though their mum or dad are Jewish should be allowed a status of a non-Jew, otherwise it is a forced identity however one looks at it. Having a soul is an individual thing not a matter of birth. You are “you” not your parents.

To Aliison:

Ok, it’s fine, I didn’t know of the Jewish holidays and the ban on using electricity, now I get it, sorry if I sounded angry but the delay seemed weird to me.

I posted another two comments, one today and one some week or 2 ago and it is not showing up, is it another Jewish holiday? If it is then I understand but I hope my comment is coming, it’s a response to one of Allison’s comments.

Why do I have no interest in Judaism anymore? I grew up with abject materialism, Where you lived, what you drove, what you wore, what college you attended, back-stabbing, etc, etc. It turned my stomach. Today, a lot of that culture is still there, but now Judiasm has been hijacked by hard core liberalism. Gay and female (or both) rabbis, support for Planned Parenthood, blind support for the Democrat party. In short, everything the Torah rails against, and supposedly the world was destroyed over. I tried Chabad about 20 years ago, but I didn’t care for being separated from society, and what seemed to me like endless rules and limitations. To be fair, I really don’t care for religion in general. I resent the idea that only my religion curries favor with God, and everyone else is a lesser human, or worse, going to hell for all eternity beacause they don’t believe like I do. I wonder about a God with human emotions such as jealosy and hatred. Oh yes, it’s in the bible. I have come to believe that God exists, but he/she stays out of things and lets the chips fall where they may. Just look at the world we live in, never ending war, strife, famine, hunger, grief, and hatred. I can’t imagine anything anyone could say could change my mind at this point.

Hello Rabbi Allison 🙂

It was so interesting to read RSM’s message, your reply and all the comments!

I have so much to say about what I have read that I almost chose to say nothing. But I couldn’t. I found myself writing this instead of working. What follows is half the length it started out to be!

Of course Jewishness is more than a religion! I would never go as far as calling it a race, because (from my stand) it is not. – But it IS at the very least, an identity. Where I come from, my Jewishness is there and is a part of me regardless of what Hasidic law or ”noonereally” have to say – although their views are probably respectable from where they come from too.

I am a patrilineal Jew, matrilineal Catholic, Bolivian citizen (Jus Soli), Austrian citizen (Jus Sanguinis), HomoBisexual (87 % gay ;), politically somewhere between centre-left and centre-right. My ancestral heritage weighs in my life as much as all the cultures, religions, experiences and people that have touched and influenced it (too beautifully many to list here).

For a human without one particular identity, as I see myself – one can choose between:

– Being a renegade of mostly anything/anyone – This is because you see everyone and everything as different from you – not part of you. You cannot identify with anything in particular. All that surrounds you is the “OTHER” and you live in a hostile world. This is particularly dangerous for other people around you since you have no norms, laws or boundaries to contain your hatred.

– All the in-betweens

– Love mostly anything/anyone – since the “OTHER” has no particular form you perceive it as non-existent and you can identify with what you have in common with the rest: our existence, our humanity. You perceive the world as a welcoming place to call home. You cannot find the feeling of “hate” within you, because it does not exist.

Fortunately for me, life has guided me to dwell somewhere within the last scenario. It has taken a lot of spiritual work though… I respect and admire people with their identity so well established! – They too have a lot of spiritual work to do in order to uncover the essence of what their particular identities have to offer them at the very core –

RSM I am not sure you have read all the replies your message and Rabbi Allison’s response have produced – here is my message to you:

I believe each one of us should embrace what we are and what we have. The “what we are” is really never that clear…. By what you say, what YOU are at this moment is a “legitimate Jew” who does not want to be one (and probably so many things more define your “what you are” in this particular moment!) –

My advice to you: You are uncomfortable where you are at this moment. Go out and explore! Find yourself a place in this world. Explore! Take Rabbi Allison’s advice if it applies to you and explore Jewry to the core – and/or take your explorations elsewhere.

It’s amazing what exploring can do. In so many cases it will bring you back to exactly the same place you left from – but with a world of a difference. It worked for me. Many times ;-)…

I really dont like this post, it makes Judaism look slimy and adhesive, which is not the way it should look imo. Religion is a belief, its not inherited, its not genetic, and the last thing we need is for people to feel that Judaism is being shoved down childrens’ throats. And the equating of jewishness with a family or a race is not a pleasant idea…

If you do not believe in judaism, you are not a jew. We can not look at it any other way in this modern world. If you insist someone is jewish and they say they no longer are, then you have fatally destroyed your ability to bring them back to faith. They will never trust you to speak honestly after that.

This is not theoretical, i have seen it.

Chris:

I’m sorry you’ve seen things play out poorly but that’s not necessarily a factor of this particular issue. You name a race, religion or parenting style and, sadly, I’ve seen kids turned off from their parents’ belief systems – and turned on to them, as well! It’s a complicated world with a lot of moving parts so this one belief is not the great villain you posit it to be, it’s one tiny part of a major dynamic.

The reality is that Judaism is more than a religion. It has an aspect of religion, of course, but it’s a nation and, largely, an extended family. That idea may not sit well with you but it doesn’t change the reality. If I were a kohein (which I’m not), I could lament, “Oh, how I wish I weren’t descended from the Biblical Aaron, brother of Moses!” I could turn my back on the responsibilities of Jewish “priesthood” but the fact remains, I would be a descendant of Aaron and those rules would apply to me whether I liked it or not.

Now cast that net wider. All Jews are descended from Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the 12 Tribes. (Converts are considered adopted.) You can deny it but we’ll still consider you Jewish. If I had an estranged brother (which I don’t), he would still be my brother, family friction notwithstanding.

Even if one does not believe in Judaism, he’s still a Jew (assuming he was in fact born Jewish). He can count in a minyan and be called to the Torah. He could join the faith without converting in. Just to play devil’s advocate, would you advocate requiring conversion for born Jews who reject Judaism and later want to embrace it? If not, you must concede that they ARE in fact already Jewish.

To Rabbi Abramowitz:

Firstly, a family is based on an unconditional love, however, in a case of Jewish people one has to be born Jewish (born to Jewish mum, who was herself born to Jewish mum and all the way to the first Jew) to be accepted as a Jew, that is the condition, hence this situation differs from real, natural family concept where your parents love you unconditionally. Jews will accept you only if you convert to Judaism or you have been born Jewish, so belonging to a Jewish circle is not like being in a real family. Please Rabbi Abramowitz, do not equate Jewishness to a family.

Also, if you wish for your Jewish identity to be recognised and respected by others: Jews and no-Jews alike then you are expected to respect other person’s wishes to not to identify as a Jew. Otherwise, you are being ignorant, you can not impose your beliefs upon others, it is not your right, if an adult person tells you that they are not a Jew and you insist on treating that person as a Jew you are violating their right to self-determination, they are free human beings and you have to learn to respect that. I agree with Chris, Jewishness has nothing to do with inheritance or genetics, it is just a belief and it exists only thanks to that belief, nothing else. Live and let others live Rabbi Abramowitz, respect others, do not be so ignorant and closed-minded.

I believe the OP has no need to worry.

When I considered making Aliyah and doing my research, I encountered a nasty surprise.

My father’s family came in three generations ago from the Eastern Bloc, and considered themselves Orthodox. My mother’s family had descended from the Reform movement which was part of America since that country declared it’s independence.

They had married under a Conservative rabbi, and basically ran a Conservative home together. No Ketuba was ever produced or written. My mother’s mother had no ketuba either.

I revealed this to an Orthodox rabbi when I attempted to gathering my evidence together for making aliyah about 30 years ago. He had said that the Orthodox do not recognize any lesser level of observe as being Judaism. Even if I could produce a Ketuba from either my mother or my grandmother, nobody in my matriineal line would be considered Jewish because they as part of the start of the Reform movement had split off from the Orthodox.

He said regardless of what my parents had practice, or what I felt I had practiced sincerely, I was not Jewish at all. He said if I really wanted to be Jewish, I should study Orthodoxy and convert.

I was really incensed about this… I thought… I had done the very best I could, thought I was born a Jew, thought I had lived as one, but had been told I never was one in the first place?

But then reflecting upon the situation, it meant that if today’s keepers of the keys did not consider me to be one of them, I was free to be anything I wanted. I was free to BECOME one of them… or I was free to decide why my own fate should be.

If you weren’t born Orthodox or converted into Orthodoxy, you are not Jewish anyway. Walk away, and don’t look back. That’s exactly what I did.

That's a terrible response by Allison. It basically amounts to because Jews were persecuted in the past, even if they had forsaken that religion, you cannot escape what happened in the past so you'd be better off simply accepting that you are a Jew. Even though RSM basically noted that being born "Jewish" doesn't make any more sense than being born Catholic the response ignores that and equates it to denying you were born into your own family. That's an inescapable biological fact as opposed to a belief system you have no idea of when you are born.

I am personally pretty unhappy with the Jewish religion. I know I am not alone. I don’t like it, so what are my choices? I can ignore it, though I feel Jewish nationally. I can try to tear it down, or at the least not suck up to it. In the end, it is a tough way to go through life. I like the idea of spirituality, I just think the Jewish version is utterly unappealing. I would probably go to an open minded church, or maybe an Open Orthodox shul, or even a weird messianic Judaism temple to find G-d.
But not with Judaism. It sickens me. It is like having a close relationship, or a marriage, to a woman you find, for whatever reasons, totally awful.
Any advice? I would love to get out of Judaism, the alternative is just to do my best to make it plain that I find it awful, and others who find it awful should not feel bad, but speak up. Of course, for those who like Judaism, that’s also fine. To each his own. But how can I experience spirituality in a religion i find gross? It’s like a person who is forced to marry someone who is totally, totally not for them — when the weird woman down the street appeals to them. How do we out of a forced marriage to someone who makes us (personally) sick? Not that there is anything objectively wrong with them. They are just really, truly not our cup of tea.

I’ve been around orthodoxy quite a bit. Also Chabad. I have good times, but I don’t really believe what they believe. For instance, I don’t know why we all have to act like we know where the Torah comes from. We don’t. But we have act like we have this amazing Torah (which if you read it? Not so amazing.)

I also don’t like the way Judaism looks backwards so much. Like somehow “back there” is all this wisdom and sages and men who “really knew things” and were close to G-d. I don’t see it that way – I think what went on back there was kind of sick. Men controlled everything, slavery was pretty legit, blacks were Ham, medicine in the Talmud is laughably wrong.

In fact, if you really read the ACTUAL Talmud there are things that are said that terrible – we just conveniently act like those things are not in there. Women can be sold into slavery, women own nothing, men can demand sex whenever they want, women certain times. You can beat up a woman who does not have your dinner and a drink ready when you get home. There’s much more of course.

We cherry pick the Talmud to make it attractive to today. We pretend that Jews were so wise on subjects like raising children, when if you read what some of the great rabbis of the past wrote about how to raise children, you would throw up. Not even Talmud rabbis, just the greats. But we pretend that the rabbis came up with great ways to raise kids – when all of the current ideas Jews toss around about raising kids come from secular authorities – just repurposed as Torah wisdom.

To me? It’s all a garbage way to go. It fills your mind with mush. I’ve been to synagogue – it’s all the same people – all white, all kind of looking to the past forever and ever when if we really looked at the past carefully we would repudiate it completely.

I like going to open minded churches just because they are more human, people express themselves, and they feel G-d. They talk about it in the here and now. They don’t start threatening you if you don’t think the Bible is from G-d, think, please, think, is how they feel. And there are different kinds of people there. People from all over the world, different types and cultures – and everyone is doing something that feels great – saying there is a G-d and we are here to bond over that. And it’s simple, it’s straight, it’s kind of weird and a little embarrassing. You can be you. The real you. Not the one who forever looks to the dessicated past for wisdom that we all basically roll our eyes at when we actually bother to read it.

It’s human and warm and real and lets you be you. I feel closer to G-d, and happier in other-than-Jewish places. I feel it is just more real and I feel I am there, not some sad representation of me that isn’t me.

It’s again, like being with the wacky girl you love and who brings out the feelings in you, and not the one who is not for you, but was picked out for you. Who makes you miserable. People tell you “you will grow to love her.” But why bother? Love who you love. The one who really you want to love. Who naturally you love. Why should you be in a marriage that feels like ortho-donture?

If there is a G-d, isn’t he going to say when he meets you, “this one really enjoyed me. He really had a good life when he stood in front of me.” Instead of: “this poor shnook took it in the neck for me for 120 years, with that wife he never felt good around, the one who made him feel half-dead. Poor shnook. Oh well.”

Tuv

OK, but we are going off on a tangent here. The original question was can I leave a religion and find one I really enjoy and actually get closer to G-d that way?

I’ll try to be brief – I am not a Torah scholar, but I will try to put together some sources.

My first source just comes out yesterday: Fink or Swim. He talks about the rotten things Chazal said about women.

Now, what is of course interesting is, what does it mean when Chazal said rotten things about women? Do they mean it? Are they correct?

As the comments on FoS show – if you are haredi you basically MUST accept the wisdom of Chazal (or else you may start getting into the slippery slope of “if Chazal were wrong, might they also be wrong on religious questions? Might they have been erroneous on transmitting the Torah? Might they be merely mortal, much like ourselves, full of goofy and wrong headed ideas?”

That will not fly of course – halacha is at stake. Take a look at that piece.

This is related to the second problem: if Chazal were wrong about science (they had ruach hakodesh of course) then maybe they were wrong about Judaism?

Most haredi rabbis will tell you hazal could not be wrong – about anything. So if they seemed wrong about science or medicine – then nature changed. You got that? We smart Jews are supposed to think that cures they put forward worked – but only at that time.

This of course leads to wondering: so, x cured a lethal bite by an animal, or a lethal disease – and then, it stopped working? Nature changed? Why didn’t Chazal bother to tell us this would happen? Think of all the patients using cures from Chazal who died only because Chazal did not bother to tell us “hey folks, these cures will stop working around the year ____.”

This is pretty sad logic, no?

Now, my next set comes from a Jew who does know Talmud and Torah. He goes by the moniker Rational Thinker, and comments a lot on other blogs:

1. When 2 people are drowning the man is saved before the woman. SA YD 252-8
2. Happy is he whose kids are male and woe to one who has females. Pesachim 65a
3. Men say a bracha thanking G for not making them women. Women not only don’t thank G for making them women, they don’t even thank him for making them what they wanted. Instead they thank him for making them how HE wanted.
4. A father can betroth his daughter. A woman may not.
5. A father can sell his daughter as a servant. He may not sell his son. A woman may sell neither.
6. Men can demand sex whenever they want. Women only at specific times.
7. A wife who doesn’t perform her duties which include washing his feet and pouring his drink can be forced by hitiing her with a stick, Rambam laws of interpersonal relations 21-7
8. Charity should not be accepted from a woman since it’s like stolen as he she owns nothing. (what she earns belongs to her father till she marries; then her husband.) Shulchan Aruch YD 248-4

Rational Thinker says “I could list 10 more. And these have nothing to do with performing specific mitvot. There isn’t an objective person around who would learn of the halachic rules for men and women who wouldn’t come to the conclusion that women are second class citizens.”

Finally on child rearing “wisdom” I am citing various things said by great rabbis of the past. I found these in a book you might actually enjoy reading. It is called Strictly Kosher Reading, by Yoel Finkelman. It is by a haredi academic who is wise to the way modern wisdom is filtered and processed and scrubbed of its true origins (in the modern world) and repurposed (in a clever, but deceptive way) as ancient Torah wisdom (mainly this is done by kiruv rabbis, who I think are truly not honorable or honest when it comes to teaching truth about our religion. That is if course the subject for another time.)

Below are things I’ve read in that book from Torah greats on parenting:

While the Vilna Gaon did prefer spanking without anger, he, like so much of the rabbinic tradition, clearly and unambiguously advocated regular, consistent, and at times quite violent corporal punishment.

‘If one loves his son, it is not enough to make him suffer for what he deserves, but he should examine him closely in case he has done a minor misdeed, and should make him suffer for that…[One is commanded to hit one’s son] even when he [the son] has not done any minor misdeed.”

Traditional Jewish sources on child rearing…explain that spanking does not promote rebellion but prevents it.

In a typical passage, the ancient Jewish text, Midrash Rabbah, quoting the book of Proverbs, relates that, “He who spares his rod hates his child. This teaches that preventing physical punishment (mardut) leads [the child] to bad culture.”

R. David Altschuler, the seventeenth century Galician author of the Biblical commentary Metzudat David, goes further in commenting on the same verse: “Do not refrain from making [your son] suffer even if you see that this is not effective.”

Sources, particularly from early-modern Ashkenazi culture but from other contexts as well, openly polemicize against fatherly affection.

For example, R. Alexander Ziskind of Grodno, the eighteenth century mystic explains that, “Even though I had many sons, I never kissed even one of them, and never held them in my arms, and never spoke with them of frivolous things, G-d forbid.”

The seventeenth-century rabbi, Yeshayahu Horowitz (the Shlah), states: If the father rebukes his son early in his life with the staff…and uses fear while he is young…then he will be accustomed to fear his father always…If in childhood the father displays great affection…then later when he matures he will not listen…Mothers are…not to spare the rod but to strike their sons even if they scream…Women who are compassionate with their children…murder them.”

Finally, I want to quote stuff I’ve read on women and Torah study.

Women are suspected generally of not being smart/serious enough to understand/appreciate Torah.

From the Rambam (Maimonides)

“Even though there is reward, the Sages commanded a person not to teach his daughter Torah, since most women’s minds are not designed for learning and they will turn the words of Torah into foolishness due to their weak intellect. The Sages said: “Anyone who teaches his daughter Torah it is as if he taught her licentiousness/nonsense.”

Now, I know what you will say: women of course learn Torah. Women of course are considered smart, and there were women in the past who learned Torah.

You can of course say all of those things – but the sages have spoken, and presumably they are not only greater in Torah, but in touch with divine will and understanding.

I have no problem with sexist sages – to me? These are men, real live normal men. And the thing is: the way we treat the wisdom of theirs we don’t like tells me we (wink, wink) really think they are just men, not really prophets or not really right (if we deem it not right as moderns) or not really with ruach hakodesh.

But the haredi norm is they ARE correct in all things.

All of the above gets us away from the original question. Of course the Talmud says good things and bad things. But we cherry pick the good and throw out the bad. We do a lot of pretending and we do it with a straight face. OK, fine.

I just personally think it reeks — would rather not be spiritually aligned with people playing games and thinking themselves clever by, on the one hand saying Chazal is inerrant, and on the other, trashing much of what they say. It’s so clever and exhausting, because we all wind up being manipulated.

Yawn. Would rather just go to a church with a bunch of freaks from all walks of life and say yes to G-d. No apologetics. No games. To me, Judaism is all games. And everyone knows it (which may explain why so many Jews assimilate, and so many haredim act badly, and so many Jews roll their eyes as they do it, and so many are orthoprax, or at least do one thing in their own homes, and in public make sure they have the whitest shirt and the hat with the biggest brim.) We are all being manipulated, and while some people love it, many clearly are unhappy (BTs aside.)

I’m sorry Rabbi, but you DID indeed ask this gentleman to cite his claims. So of it being of the Torah. If I’m wrong, let me know, but I wouldn’t find the Torah to be a second hand account, or secondary source, as you say. I think I would’ve preferred you educate us on HOW Tuvia’s statements are taken out of context. I can definitely understand that certain things written were subject to the validity of the times. But that does not make them any less horrid. Are there sources to cater to a more modern world, for those interested in Judaism? Something that a rational person today can look at and say, well that makes sense; I even like the message given, this is something I can live life happily following. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not looking for Jay & Silent Bob’s -Buddy Christ icon or anything. Just a more contemporary way of understanding what’s important…the message.

Thanks for your question. If it looks like I’m going to retroactively pick on Tuvia, that is not my intent. I’m going to go through his last post a little more thoroughly, since you seem to feel I was remiss in not doing so earlier.

Despite what you write, Tuvia didn’t really cite the Torah first-hand. He cited secondary sources that admittedly have an agenda. He says it outright: “My first source just comes out yesterday: Fink or Swim.”

He continues: “As the comments on FoS show – if you are haredi you basically MUST accept the wisdom of Chazal (or else you may start getting into the slippery slope of ‘if Chazal were wrong, might they also be wrong on religious questions? Might they have been erroneous on transmitting the Torah? Might they be merely mortal, much like ourselves, full of goofy and wrong headed ideas?’”

That’s not an indictment of anything in the Torah, it’s an indictment of a mindset that is unique to a particular group. If you don’t like it, don’t belong to that group!

He continues further: “Now, my next set comes from a Jew who does know Talmud and Torah. He goes by the moniker Rational Thinker, and comments a lot on other blogs…”

Again, a secondary source picking scattered things and gathering them out of context.

I do address (and debunk) a number of the points from Rational Thinker. Others may be technically accurate but lacking context. For example, “When 2 people are drowning the man is saved before the woman.”

This statement is true. But it doesn’t note that a Kohein is saved before a Levi, a Levi before a Yisrael, etc. Or that a woman is clothed, fed and redeemed from captivity BEFORE a man. There are all sorts of calculations that go into the laws of who comes before whom in various situations. To boil it down to “men before women” is an oversimplification to the point of disservice.

Tuvia continues: “Rational Thinker says ‘I could list 10 more. And these have nothing to do with performing specific mitvot. There isn’t an objective person around who would learn of the halachic rules for men and women who wouldn’t come to the conclusion that women are second class citizens.’”

Right. Which is why women take priority in being fed, clothed and redeemed from captivity.

I could just as easily cherry-pick ten quotes like these:

* A man must love his wife as much as he does himself and honor her more than he does himself – Talmud Yevamos 62b.

* A man must always protect the honor of his wife – Talmud Baba Metzia 59a

* One who complains and argues with his wife deserves Gehinnom – Derech Eretz Zuta

* Do not get angry with your wife. If your relationship is strained, appease her immediately – Orchos Chaim

* A man who is wealthy but unmarried has no home – Tanchuma

We have to look at the big picture, not sound bites out of context.

Continuing: “Finally on child rearing ‘wisdom’ I am citing various things said by great rabbis of the past. I found these in a book you might actually enjoy reading. It is called Strictly Kosher Reading, by Yoel Finkelman. It is by a haredi academic who is wise to the way modern wisdom is filtered and processed and scrubbed of its true origins (in the modern world) and repurposed (in a clever, but deceptive way) as ancient Torah wisdom”

Again, a secondary source. He then goes on to cite things in the name of the Vilna Gaon, R. David Altschuler, R. Alexander Ziskind of Grodno, and Yeshayahu Horowitz (the Shlah). Those are, of course, some pretty serious sources but if R. Alexander Ziskind said “Even though I had many sons, I never kissed even one of them, and never held them in my arms…,” you know who he speaks for? R. Alexander Ziskind. And if R. David Altschuler said, “Do not refrain from making [your son] suffer even if you see that this is not effective,” I can again counter with other sources, like

* A man must train himself to be gentle (Talmud Taanis 4a)

* The Torah requires us to be forgiving in the home (Bamidbar Rabbah)

* Do not introduce strict discipline in your home (Orchos Chaim)

* The father of a household should speak gently to his family (Talmud Shabbos 54a)

(Would you like a quote to counter R. Ziskind, who said he never acted frivolously with his kids? Here’s one:

* One who has children acts silly with them – Yalkut Tehillim)

So, again, I can counter any hand-selected quotes with other quotes of my own choosing. Like I said, things really require a “big picture” view.

Hand-selected quotes out of context are a dangerous thing. I can cherry-pick quotes from the Qur’an to show you that Islam is evil and that all true Muslims want to destroy us all. I can just as easily pick quotes to demonstrate how peaceful a religion Islam really is and how much true Muslims love Christians and Jews. Similarly, I can hand-select quotes from Jewish scripture and spin them to demonstrate that we should accept Jesus as our messiah. But I happen to know the proper context of those quotes. I * could * use them to demonstrate things I didn’t actually believe but that would be disingenuous.

Now, you ask for something that a rational person can look at and say, “Well, that makes sense; I even like the message given.” That’s what I try to do with the 613 commandments in my book The Taryag Companion (http://www.amazon.com/The-Taryag-Companion-Multilingual-Edition/dp/1469192101).

Finally, bonus points for the Kevin Smith reference. Snootchie bootchie!

Can Judaism, and thus Jews, actually exist without playing the victim/avenger card? For example, the holidays: On Purim, Jews “commemorate that they were victims of the Persians,” whom the Jews then slaughtered in what appears to be a preemptive strike because Haman never implemented what he is said to have been planning. On Passover, Jews were victims of the Egyptians who the Jews/Jews’ God then slaughtered. On Hanukkah, Jews were victims of the Seleucids whom the Jews avenged through war, though the Seleucids weren’t spilling Jewish blood. Victim-avenger seems to me a sad way to live. Nature doesn’t seem to have the concept of inherited victimhood, especially over a multigenerational lineage. The closest thing is when, for example, a pack of animals will attack another animal who just came and messed with their pack. But that pack doesn’t remember that attack every year, every generation, and teach their young to commemorate that specific attack in detail – what would be the point? Nature advises each generation to be aware in the present reality to what is going on, to live and be happy and free. Is it possible to reject rehashing past events – all of which had political contexts and were not attacks on Jews (or anyone else) in a total moral and societal vacuum – and still find meaningful belonging in Judaism?

You raise some good points but you’re looking at it from the wrong angle. First of all, we don’t play the victim/avenger card. We play the gratitude to G-d card. These are things that happened and G-d orchestrated our salvation. To paraphrase the Passover Haggadah, had He not done so, none of us would be here to talk about it!

In the Purim story, the Jews did not strike the Persians preemptively; they were given permission to defend themselves. See Esther 8:11: “the king granted the Jews in every city the ability to gather together and to stand for their lives, to destroy, slay and to cause to perish all the forces of the people and province WHO MIGHT ASSAULT THEM…” They only struck the Persians who chose to go ahead with the day’s original plan.

Passover? G-d took care of the Egyptians; we didn’t do a thing. The Jews sang at the Red Sea because they were saved. The Midrash says that the angels also wanted to sing praises at that time and G-d silenced them saying, “My children (meaning the Egyptians) are drowning in the sea and you want to sing?” That’s the “big picture” view. but the ones who were saved can clearly celebrate their salvation!

Chanukah? Yes, we celebrate the victory over the Greeks – foreign invaders who, by the way, were very much spilling the blood of those who didn’t comply with their decrees – but how is that different from, say, Independence Day, which celebrates our breaking away from the British? (I guess we could have rolled over and accepted all that taxation without representation…)

Read the texts carefully. In all these cases, we celebrate not the battles or the deaths, we celebrate the salvation. These holidays are an expression of gratitude, which is very much an important trait to cultivate.

Thank for your answer, Rabbi Abramowitz. Reading texts carefully is always a good idea. After a while, doesn’t this particular brand of gratitude linked to an oppositional relationship to another (only one of many forms gratitude can take) become a modus operandi?

You and I are both looking at these “holiday” commemorations and their associated “lessons” through an angle of our choosing. Nevertheless the sheer quantity of holidays that follow this pattern stands for itself. It begins to feel like a subliminal, if not explicit, suggestion that our gratitude is tied to seeing ourselves as an innocent, ethical, victimized minority, who turns the tables through achieving (divine or secular) positions of authority (or both) – sadly, through many deaths caused by either the Jews or Jews’ supernatural ally (how much difference does it make to the dead?).

Is that salvation? An affirmation of our favor and “chosenness” before the supernatural? Or is it a group, choosing to take the liberty of those actions, and justify them once said victory has been achieved? If we didn’t have these books (of claimed supernatural origin), the abstraction of transmuting war casualty commemorations into “holidays,” and the theological “authorities,” how would history judge the events that transpired?

Another reason why this matters is because “victim-to-victory gratitude” may inculcate an identity that psychologically “requires” said events to happen again, with all the pain and trauma that brings for all involved. Restated, the original question was, can Judaism/Jewry remain without the “poor-me” persecuted / “look, we’re saved, a miracle” status? Are we capable of the trait of gratitude for simply being?…Or do we always have to be messily, warfully overcoming some “oppressor”/”opponent” in order to experience Jewishness and “gratitude.” Gratitude that doesn’t leave someone dead or crippled, doesn’t leave us endlessly in past difficulties that we mentally and literally recreate today…gratitude that just says thank you for my life – what a concept.

How are you not jewish if you just said you were born by 2 jews. I'm probably confused but to me that's like saying "Both my parents were russian but im not considering my self russian" Just explain cause I don't understand. No hate

I’m late to this conversation but I still thought I’d put my two-cents in since it seems people don’t know much about ethno-religious groups. Although Wikipedia might not be liked by all, it does have a good description of what I’m talking about:
“An ethnoreligious group is an ethnic group of people whose members are also unified by a common religious background. Ethnoreligious communities define their ethnic identity neither exclusively by ancestral heritage nor simply by religious affiliation, but often through a combination of both (a long shared history; a cultural tradition of its own; either a common geographical origin, or descent from a small number of common ancestors; a common language, not necessarily particular to the group; a common literature particular to the group; a common religion different from that of neighbouring groups; being a minority or being an oppressed or a dominant group within a larger community).”

Jews are an ethno-religious group whose ethnic religion is called Judaism. Because Jewish identity is determined “neither exclusively by ancestral heritage nor simply by religious affiliation” it’s possible for Jews to reject Judaism but still be Jewish AND for non-Jews (through conversion) to adopt Judaism and also be called Jewish. Although I should note that there are some ethno-religious groups that don’t accept converts at all, such as the Druze and Zoroastrians. You can look up “ethnic religion” in Wikipedia to get an idea of conversions to such religions.

Let me explain it this way: the Greek word for “Greek” is “Hellene” and the word for the Ancient Greek religion (and it’s modern variant) is “Hellenismos”. This means the traditional religion of the Greeks can literally be translated as “Greekism”.
Now if a Greek person stopped practising Greekism, is (s)he still Greek?
The answer is yes. Otherwise the Greek people would have died out along with their religion when they were converted to Christianity. Likewise, if you were born to Jewish parents (more importantly a Jewish mother) you are Jewish even if you forsake Judaism.

It’s also interesting to note that the Greek word “ethnos” (which is where we get the word “ethnicity”) actually means “nation” or “people”.

Well … WOW! RSM here … the one who started this whole debate. Never expected it to go the mile … but glad it has! It’s clear there are two camps — those who believe Judaism is more than a religion or sub-cultural “identity” and those who believe that is all it is. Unfortunately, the ones speaking from the pulpit have the microphone and … much like other “believers of the faith” … cannot seem to get past their “writings” and “teachings” to recognize that real people like me in the world (and I believe others in this chain) are feeling molested and violated by your teachings. You wish to place an “identity” upon us that you feel we are born with. You acknowledge that humans have free will, yet you still fall upon your religious doctrine to force your identity upon them.
Let me set everyone straight on some things. I’ve explored my “jewishness” or whatever the hell you call it. Went to school … went to synagogue … hung out with your community. I never felt more distant and disconnected from any group in my life. It’s always dangerous to stereotype, but I find your community to be rigid in belief, often quick to criticize how rigid others are in their beliefs, and — frankly — arrogant in your thinking. Reading through this painful chain of people citing scripture back and forth to each other has proven to me that this is no better than Baptists thumping their bibles at one another.
The simple truth I’ve discovered in my soul and within ever fiber of my being is that … you’re all wrong. At least about me you are. And if you’re wrong about me, you’re probably wrong about others who feel as I do. Is that possible? Can you be mistaken about this? Can you accept the possibility that you may be wrong about me? That you’re not God and all knowing … regardless of the scripture you read … that were written by men.
For anyone who has felt that a certain church’s or religious sect’s interpretation of the bible may be out-of-date and require some reforming or “re-interpretation” … perhaps that same scrutiny should be applied to Judaism’s outdated interpretations and beliefs. Does Judaism have the courage to be just as introspective as you would expect others to be? Haven’t seen any hint of it on this front. Yet, here I am … telling you that you are wrong about me.
Let me end with a word of caution to you all. I can respect the pride you have in your perceived cultural heritage and the “identity” you derive from that. But when you force that sense of pride onto others and — based on YOUR beliefs — pollute society to believing that one born to Judaism is inextricably bound to it for eternity — you take away their ability to celebrate their own identity and beliefs. In effect, you hold them spiritually hostage. I know you don’t believe you’re doing that, but you are by preaching what you preach. It is from this place that real hatred and resentment are born. The kind that created men like Hitler.
If you are truly an ethical religion/culture/whatever you identify as, you should always be working to avoid that and allow people to identify where their soul connect … not where your scripture tells them they are bound. God gave you free will, too, to interpret these writings … and trust your fellow humans’ assessments of themselves. Please use that free will to look beyond what you’ve been taught.
For me, I cannot respect you and your identities until you respect mine.

I would just add one small thought.
Why is it bothering you so much that there is no exit out of judaism? & why do you even need one?
If all jewish teachings & the Torah are untrue or just irrelevant, why do believe or need it to give you a way out? It’s anyways irrelevant.
But here is the problem that you actually ‘do’ feel connected to your jewish self & you wanna get rid of it but you can’t, because YOU CAN NOT!!!

Please folks stop torturing yourselves! I am a geneology buff, and even tested my DNA and my mother’s out of curiosity, but what difference does it make nobody is truly all one thing completely, even in in some people who are 98% one ethnicity there is still something else in there. And we are not our ancestors or our progenitors as human beings we are ourselves, and as thinking and sentient beings we make choices every day. Make the choice that suits you best, based on all the best information on hand and what you believe will give you satisfaction.

We can our family, friends, neighbors but we must be true to ourselves to lead an authentic existence. Anyone who asks or even worst holds your choices against you is being unfair and you should not feel obliged to explain yourself to them. If they become cruel remove yourself from their company. Always keep in mind that “No”. Is a complete sentence.

Religion has been many things over the course of centuries, it has been used by the Greeks in their pantheon to explain human failings, it has been used to explain the movements of the earth and stars before the Age of Enlightenment, it has been used to keep masses of starving poor from tearing up the homes of the elite by offering them a paradise in heaven, it has been used to insure the power of one group over another by annoiting kings and queens, it has deprived women of every human right by treating them as chattel bartered between one family and another, it has stolen the innocence of children by gaining their confidence then molesting them, it has led millions to slaughter over which group has the ultimate truth.

This ancient earth which we humans (homo sapiens) have lately come to and in our time have done more horrific damage that we live her soon to be unsustainable, must now get beyond our million year childhood and stop telling ourselves nursery tales to comfort us. It is time to grow up and say we came from no garden a creation of a super being, but even more glorious we evolved from the first starbursts and atoms that created a universe. Every day we learn more and we learn faster. You want to see miraculous look at a lab making medicine or a telescope or a surgery where operations can be performed inter-utero.

I converted to Judaism to marry my wife, from whom I am now divorced. Her family was of the extreme right as far as Israel is concerned and I was always made to silence any qualms about my position on the presence of her family. I thought that I was converting to the religion of Spinoza and Buber, but found myself being expected to tow the line of Netanyahu and AIPAC. Sorry, everyone. Converting to Judaism is like converting to be Chinese if it is only a cultural thing. I have no animus toward Jews, but I found myself too often in the position of being more Catholic than the pope or shutting up. A moment came when I could not stand it anymore. Since I find most of the state of Israel’s policies to be morally reprehensible, I can no longer in any way identify as a Jew, except that in principle, AIPAC not withstanding, I have the right to protest in favor of a lost cause. It was all over the day the West Bank became Judea and Samaira in the discourse of the Jewish right. I’m the post-modern guy .. ethnic identity must be great if you feel part of it, bit it has it’s drawbacks. My experience in Israel was that I felt much more empathy with the Palestinian bartender than the matrons pushing each other aside to light Shabbat candles in the hotel lobby. No sense of ethnic identity and no spiritual home in Judaism the way it manifests itself in our day,